Game Thread: April 28, Braves at Rockies
Today's Game Thread Video is dedicated to Mel Kiper Jr.!
posted by Mac @ 4/28/2007 10:19:00 AM
107 Comments
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Langerhans has been destroyed!
4/28/2007
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Remember how Cox used to put Belliard in to play SS in the 9th inning for defense? The Braves need to dump one of the useless left fielders and put a late-inning great-fielding SS on the bench.
A.West
Go Braves!
Let's see how Smoltzie pitches with that nice, new contract. :)
I like the description of Calvin Johnson refusing to admit Reggie Ball sucked. I can see it now:
OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR: Come on, admit it! He almost got you killed three times a game!
JOHNSON: No, I won't.
OC: I mean, didn't you ever want to strangle Gailey for not making a move?
JOHNSON: No.
OC: Seriously, didn't you think that with another quarterback you could have had 3000 yards last year?
JOHNSON: Look, I'm not going to say Reggie sucked. He was doing his best....
I just found something I dislike about watching the draft. I'm betting most of you have found it too.
Clue: It calls itself the Head Ball Coach.
Jamaal Anderson strikes me as a fine pick for the Falcons. This probably means there's something I'm overlooking.
If nothing else, it reminds you of the Super Bowl year.
Miami drafts Ted Ginn, Jr.
Didn't see that coming.
I think Ted Ginn Jr. may be one of the best players in the top 10 this coming up year, behind Calvin Johnson of course...
Oh, and I am a little surprised Brady Quinn hasn't been picked yet, considering all the hype.
Today, the part of Brady Quinn will be played by Andrew McCarthy, ca. 1985.
Umm, I don't get that reference. That was before I was born...
Miami impaled me today with that pick....
Ted Ginn.... wow
I'm still in shock over Ginn that came completely out of left field.
I wish we could dispense with the notion that criticizing an aspect of a player's performance is somehow disrespectful to them as a person.
I like Edgar. He's a solid hitter for a shortstop. He carries himself with class. If he said he was coming over for dinner, I'd be thrilled.
But I'm told it takes him two hours of flexibility exercises to get his back prepared to play, and it shows. You can see it in the field -- hell, you can see it when he walks to the plate.
Sure, he was a good defensive SS in the past, but those days are likely gone. He's stiff and sluggish. I take no satisfaction in pointing that out, but it's true. I'm glad he's hitting .344. If he doesn't hit .300, I don't believe he's putting W's on the board.
I think Ted Ginn Jr. may be one of the best players in the top 10 this coming up year, behind Calvin Johnson of course...
Completely the opposite here. Poor route runner, average hands at best, doesn't go over the middle. Great speed of course, but it takes more than that these days. Gonzalez was always the go to guy on that team.
Personally, I can't believe that Houston went DL again. They have an abusive relationship going with their season ticket holders.
Robert
Brady Quinn is a nice guy and I wish him well, but tonight he looks like another victim of Notre Dame hype....
Responding to the first post: You mean like Li'l Tony Pena?
Sansho,
As always, words of wisdom indeed. As I mentioned in the earlier thread, I like Edgar as a player, but his prowess these days is hitting. And, I think he'd do well to learn to play first base and follow in the light of Julio in the next few years. There, on the right club, one that doesn't need power from first but could use a professional hitter, he could stick around this game for a while. That's not to say that he or the Braves need to consider doing that this year. Nor is it disrespectful to either the Braves or Edgar to say so.
-Jeff M.
Remember how Cox used to put Belliard in to play SS in the 9th inning for defense?
Ah...Belliard. That Belliard homer at Shea in '97 was one of the greatest things ever.
Robert
Steve Young puts the "moron" in "Mormon".
The problem with bringing up such a SS is that I don't want to stunt the development of Escobar or Lillibridge. Renteria to LF only works if he keeps hitting .340, which he won't. I think our best strategy is to put up with the defense while shopping him for whatever pitching prospects we can get- and I understand that we probablly can't get a top-flight prospect for him.
And the Brady Quinn Deathwatch is over! I pity Browns fans.
I think the Browns were smart to grab Quinn there. He'll be playing with a chip on his shoulder now.
I'm hoping he washes out of the NFL and winds up with the Edmonton team of the CFL, so he can be Quinn the Eskimo. But that's just me.
KUZZIN KENNY'S GOING TO FILADELFEA!!! LUK OWT MCNAB!!!!!!
The Falcons have evidently traded up for the 41st pick. One wonders who they plan to get who wouldn't be around at #44.
I'm guessing they're looking QB to replace Schaub as the QB who can actually pass.
Fraid not, Mac. Chris Houston, Arkansas cornerback. That's two Razorbacks they've taken today. Is there someone on their coaching staff from the U of A?
Oh, a corner. Necessary; I like it.
Atlanta is quietly having a hell of a draft. I love Anderson, Blalock can play both guard and tackle and Houston is a very strong CB that should be great with them Hokies!(D-Hall and Jimmy)
Atlanta
K. Johnson 2b
E. Renteria ss
C. Jones 3b
A. Jones cf
B. McCann c
J. Francoeur rf
S. Thorman 1b
R. Langerhans wtf?
J. Smoltz p
Colorado
W. Taveras cf
T. Tulowitzki ss
G. Atkins 3b
T. Helton 1b
M. Holliday lf
B. Hawpe rf
Y. Torrealba c
J. Carroll 2b
J. Hirsh p
Jeffrey has more walks than Bmac.
If I were Drew Stanton and learned that Matt Millen loved me, I would probably start thinking about what I'm going to do with the rest of my life.
I'm hoping they convert either Williams or Houston to Safety. Or something. But damnit. Jimmy Williams better not turn out to be a bust. I loved watching him here that one great year he had.
DAVID CLOWNEY NEEDS TO GET DRAFTED ALREADY! That guy is awesome.
Joshtothemaxx,
I think the same thing, I wanna see Jimmy at safety too! And Clowney is probably a 3rd-4th.
On the plus side, Aaron Rouse should be drafted very soon...
The Panthers selected the wrong USC receiver. They should have taken Steve Smith just to confuse everyone.
HAHAHA, Dwayne Jarret is so awkward right now!
Haha, you're so right mac. Seriously, how would they do the jerseys? Middle initial I guess...
Seeing Calvin go to the Lions is like watching a Greek tragedy.
My Bengals taking Kenny Irons...hmmmm
That was a nasty change up...
Nice Chipper, 0-2 and draws a walk.
Andruw gives me a headache.
my prediction for tonight's game: bobby is ejected by eddings before long...
Well, this is a cheerful way to start...
Uh-Oh....Tulowitzki goes deep in back-to-back games....
Man, Smoltz isn't fooling anyone tonight.
He's leaving everything high in the strike zone.
Finally that inning is over...not a good start.
The Bengals are collecting Auburn running backs. What does this say about Auburn running backs?
OK, I'll bite. They'll fit in on the Bengals, the chain gang of professional sports. Wasn't Burt Reynolds their quarterback?
I think we can kill Hirsh. Smoltzy had a bad inning, so what, if the offense is working, we have a really really good chance.
Thanks for making me a iiar, jerks.
I'm just joking.
GO BRAVES!
Now are you guys with me on Renteria? Jesus.
Can anybody watching on TV tell me how Smoltz's velocity is and if he's hanging pitches?
Well, let's hope for some two-out hits.
.051, thanks to an E6.
At very least, he got on base.
Joe and Chip are such putzes. Langerhans' ground ball was no more of a hit than Grindhouse was.
I don't buy the "Renteria is an atrocious defender" argument. His range factor sucks. He doesn't make a lot of errors, he has a strong arm (he almost threw out Wily Taveraz while jumping last night), so he's not "bad" defensively. Now, if he had no range, no arm, and booted balls left and right, then you got something there. Mac said he gets to one fewer ball a game. OK. So what? That's one hit that he allows a game. How many hits does he take away with an above average arm and good hands? I know we have to have someone on here to criticize, but I don't think you have that someone in Renteria and his defense...
Langerhans has a new stance. I wonder how much of that is affecting his hitting. That can throw off your balance, your plate judgment, the whole bit. Hopefully he'll turn it around.
Oh, and I was thinking of this earlier about Renteria's defense: for most of Furcal's tenure in Atlanta, he was a bad defender. He had a cannon, and GREAT range, but he had bad hands and his arm was ridiculously erratic. I think I would rather have a sure-fielding, yet slow, shortstop than a ticking-time-bomb, yet fast, shortstop.
I'm going to be pretty disappointed if we dont tie the game at this point.
We can kill this guy!
Rob, Renteria's range is far below normal. One more hit allowed per game is pretty substantial given that teams average about 10 per game. And there is zero evidence that he makes up for it with his arm- if anything, his arm adds to the problem with its below-average strength.
The guy's just not a major league caliber SS anymore.
And Chipper is still a major league caliber hitter! Great at bat!
CHIPPER!
Let's get some more.
ANDRUW! Another home run turned into an out.
I'll see that one on the top plays.
Can't wait.
FRENCHY!
If he gets hit by a pitch in his next AB, Ryan will have the Langerhans Cycle!
Langy, on base twice, in a row, maybe a hit on the horizon?
Kelly Johnson is my hero!
Brian, there is no statistical evidence to definitively judge a arm strength. All you can do is watch for yourself. When I watch, I don't see his arm making him unable to make plays. His arm is just fine, and so are his hands. Yes, his range factor is down, but so is Chipper's, but you don't see people dogging his defense. And if anything, Renteria has better hands and atleast an equal arm. I'll be watching more closely for now concerning Renteria's arm and hands, but I'm telling you, they're not "below-average." Ever watch David Eckstein?
I think that the Langercycle is:
1. Reach on error.
2. Reach on failed sacrifice.
3. Hit by pitch.
4. Finally get a hit when your ground ball strikes a baserunner.
Rob, range factor takes all of that into account. It accounts for the number of batted balls turned into outs by a fielder.
Renteria is one play per 9 innings below average on range factor, meaning that all the components of his defense- range, hands, reflexes, quickness, positioning, and arm strength and accuracy- add up to being that bad.
See, that's what a good shortstop play looks like.
Okay, that was a nice play. I'll give him that.
Renteria simulates being a good SS on that play.
DID YOU GUYS SEE THAT BLIND SQUIRREL THAT PLAY!?
Wow, Renteria sucks out there.
I'm trying not to turn this into a Landogarner - "Huckleberry/Francouer" thing, but this guy is good defensively.
That was a great play by Renty.
holy crap frenchie
Range factor isn't 100% accurate in determining a players' defensive value. And it's plays like that, that save hits, that contradict what range factor says. I'm sorry, but I don't see it. His arm's good, his hands are good, it's just his ability to get to balls that's a problem. I would say Chipper's is more of an issue than Renteria's.
I'm really surprised three safeties have been taken and not one of them Aaron Rouse. I understand Eric Weedle, but Gerald Alexander? He was a projected 5th rounder.
Smoltz's not exactly on tonight, but he's keeping us in the ball game. He had two great plays by Renteria and Francouer that saved him. If not for those, it's 5-4 with a runner on third with two outs.
You're judging players not by how many plays they make but by how many flashy plays they make. It's a false sort, because you don't pay any attention to the plays they don't make.
Langerhans still sucks. .050.
Renteria couldn't have made that play with a net.
Julio Franco just knocked in the tying run the Mets/Nots game off Cordero.
Even with the introduction of "range factor", a players' defensive ability is still largely an opinion. There are so many different definitions and formulas that the results are skewed. For Example, some formula's say that Jacque Jones is an excellent defensive outfielder. Other "defensive calculations" say he is a bad defensive outfielder. So many holes exist in defensive measurements. How a high player can jump for a line drive (or rob a homer), arm strength, fielding bunts, bad hops, turning double plays, etc, are all instances that, while they may be included in determing "range factor" or "defensive ability" they are not by any stretch of the imagination conclusive.
I guess, in a very wordy way, what I am saying is this: there isn't one stat we can use to judge a players defense. We are close on offense, close on pitching, but we have a ways to go for defense.
Woah!
.049. Honestly, anyone on this board could hit .049.
Langerhans....Which happens first the end of the slump or a more permanent position on the bench?...
I really thought Langerhans might get himself a hit there. I feel real bad for him.
Slumps are part of the game and Coors Field would have been a good time for Langerhans to break out of this one.
I guess Bobby is not going to use Wickman tonight...
You know, I think I could hit at least .097 in the majors, with at least one double.
Does Langy have any extra-base hits?
EDGAR!
No extra-base hits for Langerhans. Just two singles (his last one was April 11) and 6 walks.
I really like Soriano. He just walks out there, throws nasty stuff, and generally acts like hitters offend him.
Nasty pitch there to get Finley
Langerhasn't slump is reaching epic proportions. It's more of a collapse.
Hey, Renteria sure is a good infielder!
d'oh!
Haha. Hands :)
Renty didn't help his case there.
i'd trade his homerun for that out
And that's your ballgame everyone. Here's to a sweep!
Soriano=Badass
I'm actually somewhat surprised we didn't doubleswitch and let Woodward finish the game at short after Edgar's homer.
Great way to close--I think that we just saw the Braves of the future...
Yeah, Renteria really made me look like a dork there. So, with that in mind, I will concede what Mac pointed out and I will not just look at the great plays Renteria makes, but also the bad ones.
Whoever made the anonymous post about being unable to evaluate defense based purely on either your eyes or stats made an excellent point. Our defense evaluation is probably very flawed, and probably mine included. Because of the inconsistency of defensive metrics (some say Andruw sucks!), I sometimes overly abuse my own "eyes" so to speak on what I see from a player.
I'm glad Wickman didn't pitch the ninth. He may be hurting, and he basically took himself out last night. Nice inning by Soriano, and it's good to see him getting solid work in. Gonzalez looked great too.
Go Braves.
One last thing about Renteria: I definitely agree that he's not good enough defensively to be in during late-inning situations. I would much rather see Woodward in in the 7th or 8th inning on if Renteria isn't set to hit.
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