Braves 11, Marlins 6
ESPN.com - MLB - Box Score - Braves at Marlins
So, here's what we know: Mark Redman is done; Ryan Langerhans is awful; and Fredi Gonzalez is really, really stupid.
Fredi did make a nice call in the second inning. The Braves had scored four in the first off of Rick Vanden Hurk, whatever that is, but Redman gave it all back in the bottom of the inning. RVH then walked the bases loaded, including Redman as the leadoff hitter, and Fredi pulled the plug. He almost got out of it when Chipper and Andruw popped out, but McCann walked to score one and Francoeur singled to score another to make it 6-4.
Redman actually got through the second, but gave the lead back in the third, allowing two runs, and Bobby had seen enough as well and went to Moylan to start the fourth. Moylan was great (mostly, I have to point out, against a primarily righthanded-hitting lineup assembled against the lefty starter) and went three, striking out three and allowing just one hit and one walk. McCann's sac fly in the sixth gave the Braves a 7-6 lead.
Kali came on in the seventh and was as good as I've ever seen him, needing only nine pitches for the 1-2-3 inning, including a strikeout. The Soriano of the first two weeks put in an appearance in the eighth, striking out two of the three Marlins he faced.
Then Fredi's brainlock. Andruw and McCann went down to start the ninth. Francoeur singled. Thorman singled and took second when the Marlins idiotically tried to get Francoeur at third. Langerhans was due up, and I was hoping against hope Bobby would pinch-hit when Fredi called for an intentional walk. Intentionally walking a man who was at that point rapidly closing in on an .050 batting average -- he's now 2-38 on the season -- is suicidal insanity.
Orr pinch-hit, worked the count to 3-2, then lined a single past first to score two. KJ and Renteria added RBI singles and it was 11-6. Wickman was already ready, since once again it was a one-run game with two out in the top of the ninth, and allowed one hit in the bottom of the inning.
Every Brave regular except, of course, Langerhans, had at least one hit. Francoeur and Thorman had three apiece and each had two RBI. KJ had only the single, but walked three times and scored off of each. The Braves scored 11 runs with no homers. I'd give the MVP to Moylan, who got the win.
posted by Mac @ 4/24/2007 09:26:00 PM
63 Comments
63 Comments:
I hate Mark Redman!
Great win today.
it is now obvious, that Mark Redman has NO business being on our staff, 40 man roster, or any level of our organization, perhaps package him with langerhans and send them to the pitching thirsty new york yankees, who lost to that powerhouse the tampa bay devil rays! Langerhans is clueless, adn the best part is, we are watching the game figuring the rally is over, when gonzalez WALKS HIM! i couldnt believe it, i kept thinking it was a commercial or a joke, but nope, he should get the axe tommorow for that move. meanwhile, redman needs to GO! you cant tell me there is no one in the minors that is better than him
Redman has no business even being in AAA...
Great game for Frenchy and KJ...
Why was the decision to walk Langerhans such a bad idea. Now, it wasn't great, but here's the deal: Langerhans sucks, sure, but Orr was on deck. Langerhans could be 2-600 and I would rather pitch to Orr. Plus, you put Langerhans at first and you've got a force at any base. Worse case scenario, you can make the case that Orr and Langerhans are the same player offensive, but Langerhans has more power. I don't think it was a bad decision.
Oh, and why the heck would the Yanks want Langerhans? Three words: Matsui, Damon, Abreu.
Surely, one of our minor leaguers could do better than Redman. Sometimes I hate the organizational philosophy that prizes experienced sh*t over youth. At least if Lerew or Harrison or some other warm body was pitching they could be learning something. What does anyone learn by throwing Redman out there?
-Jeff M.
That has got to be one of the craziest moves I have ever seen - INTENTIONALLY walking Langerhans to load the bases. As soon as I saw that, I knew the Braves were going to have a HUGE inning. That was just great. A+ to the bullpen. Only 2 hits in 6 innings - exceptional. Let's see if we can't pull out another one tomorrow - haven't lost a series yet this year.
Oh, and on another note - I was paying close attention to Chip while announcing the game because someone here had mentioned he was horrible. Well, I'd have to agree - he is just terrible. He spends more time bragging about the other organizations than doing the play-by-play. Oh well, where's that petition to have him removed...
Mets win in the 12th on a 2-out drag bunt by Chavez.
But the game was lost basically on a Little League-style balk by the Colorado pitcher to get the runner to third.
My evaluation of Mark Redman:
His fastball isn't fast, his slider doesn't slide, and since his fastball isn't fast his changeup isn't very good either.
As for Langerhans: Wow. Just, wow.
McCann the Man, that's funny: that's exactly what Pete said during the game. "Another 0 for 4 game for Langerhans. Wow."
the funny thing about walking langerhans is that it's not like he's derek jeter or even kelly johnson ca. 2005 and just getting unlucky - he's striking out half the time and making incredibly weak contact. i think i could strike him out with my 70mph heat.
Great outings by Moylan and Kali. Man oh man...if just one of them can keep it through some sort of consistency, think of the possibilities.
I started the year thinking Mark Redman might be an OK fifth starter at least for inning-eating purposes, although admittedly I wasn't a huge fan. But this is just terrible. I was convinced we were gonna find a way to lose that game for awhile. I'll give him until Cormier comes back (should be another start or two) but unless he really pulls something out of his ass during that time period, he's gotta be the odd-man out and not Davies, even with Davies pitching like crap his last two starts.
And as far as Fredi goes, I thought Randolph was stupid this weekend, but by comparison, Randolph should just be enshrined in the Hall of Fame right now.
What does potential power matter when you're just trying to stop a base hit anyway? By the book, if you have no knowledge whatsoever of what's been going on this year, maybe I would rather pitch to Orr. But really, it's so close to 50-50, I probably would have just pitched to Langerhans even then, so as not to load the bases for a young pitcher. But with how badly he's been playing, there is absolutely no way in hell that walking Langerhans is anything other than the biggest dumbass move of the season thus far. Hell, if Bobby had decided to leave Soriano in for whatever reason, I still might have very seriously considered pitching to Langerhans.
I think every single one of us could tell you that Orr was about twice as likely to get a hit in that situation as Langerhans. Just incredibly stupid, and it might have cost them the game, because who knows what Ramirez, Uggla and Cabrera do if that's a one-run game.
If there was one out, walking Langerhans might have made some sort of sense. But with two outs, you should be salivating at the possibility of facing the strikeout machine that is Langerhans.
If Langerhans had been pitched to and singled (it's not like that's not possible), Fredi would have looked like an idiot. If Orr had grounded out (which he almost did), we wouldn't talking. It was only a bad move because the no-hit middle infielder had a seeing-eye single. Langerhans could have had the same hit and made Fredi look bad. I don't care how clueless Langerhans looks. He's a better hitter than Orr.
Jeff Francoeur is hitting .299/.368/.532 4 HR 24 RBI
Just thought i'd mention it. :)
Plus, you create a force EVERYWHERE. Is anyone familiar with the fundamentals of baseball by any chance? Langerhans is fast, and a ball in the hole just about anywhere, Langerhans has a chance to beat it out. Orr's even faster, so on that same ball you have an even better chance at getting out wherever it's hit because of the options.
Though I am down on him, I really am rooting for Langerhans to come around. Look for him to finally get off the deck in Colorado.
And starters 4 and 5 -- we need you to do well this year to win this thing. Not too many losses to be had with the Mets.
Salty with 2 more HRs tonight.
Sorry Rob, but I think that walking the bases loaded with two outs is almost never a good idea. The only way it is a good idea is when you do it to get to someone struggling as much as Langerhans is. "Force at every base" is overrated. "Nowhere to put him" is underrated.
Career batting averages:
Langerhans .245
Orr .274
I do see what you're saying about the out at any base thing, but:
a) I think you can make just as good a case for not loading the bases for a young pitcher, especially a young strikeout pitcher, where he's more likely to be wild and there's a decent chance you won't even need the infielders, and;
b) The out at any base thing is like lefty-righty matchups. It's a by-the-book thing that works more than it doesn't, but you aren't required to blindly follow it when somebody who isn't hitting half his own weight is up. Like j leeds said earlier, if there's one out, we could talk about it, as it sets up the double play (although frankly, I still probably would've pitched to him with my strikeout pitcher), but with two outs...I'm sorry, I don't see it.
"Force at every base" isn't anymore overrated than "nowhere to put him." Pete Orr is not in any danger of walking against a guy with no control problems and hadn't given up a run all season.
I should mention that I'm not saying that I would have walked Langerhans, but it's not a dumb decision. More times than not that decision works out. Orr just came up big. Good for Pete.
He's a leadoff-type hitter who has been known to work a walk and he had a three-ball count.
And I will save you all the embarrassment of not posting Huckleberrys horrific stats... again....
But gee I am sure glad we didn't keep him and send Jeffrey down like pretty much everyone on here wanted to do..... But Huck is such a great player! ahahahahah
lando
Pete Orr? Lead-off type? The same Pete Orr with a .301 OBP and a 11/56 K/BB rate? Right, right, he runs fast. I got it. I guess Juan Pierre is a lead-off type too...
It was a dumb decision. You don't IBB a guy that is 3-for-36, is striking out at a historically staggering clip and hasn't hit a ball hard in weeks. It's a story when the guy even makes contact.
Oh, and Pete Orr was 0-5 with 3 K's before that at-bat. Just sayin...
Yes, and Langerhans was 0 for his last 24 with 10 Ks.
Right, but it doesn't mean this is a no-brainer, slam-dunk brain fart. Orr came through. It back-fired on Fredi. It could have gone either way. I'm done with this. Go Braves.
Yeah, glad Pete came through to give us the chance to argue about it...heh.
And glad we won this freaking game. It would have reminded me too much of last year if we had lost a game in which we scored seven runs.
Sorry Rob, but I think that walking the bases loaded with two outs is almost never a good idea. The only way it is a good idea is when you do it to get to someone struggling as much as Langerhans is. "Force at every base" is overrated. "Nowhere to put him" is underrated.
This is the best point in here. 'Force at every base' gets overwhelmed by 'have to throw a strike' strategy-wise. If you are going to walk a guy who looks as bad as Hans does right now, the next guy better be a pitcher. Orr's not great but any real hitter looks like Stan Musial right now compared to Hans.
Perhaps Fredi is just a really big believer in "He's due".
Anybody heard Skip make the "Langerhans is hitting O-fifty...Bingo!" yet? I love that joke.
Robert
Sorry, I can't justify ever intentionally walking any hitter who has hit as poorly as Langy over his last 30 or so abs - as someone pointed out, he's not even close to a hit most of the time. The only explanation I have is that somewhere deep inside, Gonzalez has a soft spot for Langerhans and doesn't want to further erode his confidence.
As for other subjects, it looks like Thor is coming on. We're just missing a left fielder and a starting pitcher.
I vote to call him Red Alert instead of Mark Redman. He is miserably terrible.
I'll keep looking for the new site. Thanks Mac.
It'd be really great if we could teach Salty first base by mid-June then move Thorman to left to platoon with Diaz. That move alone would probably equal a couple wins in the second half.
Yeah... it would have been okay if Langerhans had had, say, a hit in the past two weeks. But he hasn't. So it was just a bad, bad move.
In other news, Frenchy's been fantastic, and it looks like Thor might have come around (along with the great relief, that's probably the big news of the night). Now, if we can just get Wilson off the mat, we'll only have one exceptionally poor position to worry about getting production from (and I have faith that Diaz will come around; he's just streaky).
Also, shame the Rox couldn't hold on in the 9th. :-(
Can Salty pitch?
Count me in the "pitch to Hans" crowd. So what if he is due? Prove it.
Robert, I love "bingo". Skip has been in rare form this year. Especially when I've caught him on the radio. I'll say it again, that guy is a national treasure.
-urlhix
rob,
love ya man, but anyone trying to rationalize not pitching to Hans is not in their right mind. Let's say he did put the ball in play. I think the poor guy would be in such shock he'd forget what to do next. This guy needs a vacation. Hans must have pictures of Fredi and Bobby to get the treatment he got tonight.
Koodos to the pen tonight, 6 innings of scoreless ball, gotta love it.
Redman, was awful any way you look at it. I had low expectations when we signed him and thought he'd sneek some reasonible appearances in, but i really don't know how this guy has a job.
I made it through the 4th inning before collapsing from sheer exhaustion and not waking up until 11PM, but I've gotta say, Redman is all kinds of awful. How was he an All-Star last year? You'd think he'd get better going from the AL to the NL, but it's the exact opposite. All his stuff just floats up there like it's on a tee. It's quite remarkable.
this is one of those games that drives the Marlins crazy. Every run the Braves scored was with two outs, if i'm not mistaking. That will certainly get you pulling your hair out.
has salty been taking snaps at first base or outfield yet?
orr has a .303 OBP
langerhans .338
I was mystified when Gonzalez walked Langerhans too. But looking at the bench lefties that Bobby had left and the force anywhere, its a defensible move.
On another note I am starting to think that Francouer is REALLY getting it. He took a called 3rd strike on a 3-2 count. The thing was that the pitch was a knee high fastball just off the strike zone that was unhittable. The ump gave the pitcher the extra couple of inches off the plate. Fooled he took rather than hacked. Some would argue that the pitch was too close to take but I still see it as a good sign.
One of the most positive signs about this game for me was that Commander Cody Ross was unable to win the game all by himself, despite his best efforts to the contrary.
And, yes, count me in the cautiously optimistic "Maybe Jeff Francoeur is beginning to get it" category. I love being suckered in by my favorite baseball players... I just hope he doesn't break my heart like so many of the others...
I too think taking a called third strike is a good sign in the case of Frenchy. Kind of crazy to say, but that was a pitch that was tailing away and was probably a ball. It is clear that he is making a conscious effort at the plate.
Rob, I get you point man. I have a feeling that the move Fredi made may have came from the Bobby Cox school of management. I'm guessing that his thought process was hans or orr are just as likely to make an out and it would be best to have a force at every base. We can all argue the value of the "force at every base" theory, but the fact remains that the call he made would probably be made or considered by all or most managers in the game.
You know if Diaz, who looked awful swinging at high balls out of the strike zone, doesn't come around you could always put Thor in left and play Wilson full time at 1b. Wilson will take a walk and I think that his history suggests at least league average. Just one game but Thor looked good. He needs some PA's though. The number of leftys we are seeing is ridiculous
That called third strike to Francouer was just an amazing pitch. Nothing you could do with it. I was sitting at home and almost fell off the bed, it was so nasty.
That's one where you just tip the hat to the pitcher for making the pitch.
Wilson's got more outfield experience than Thorman, so if his shoulder is healthy he'd be more likely to play out there. I think I'd rather give Blanco a chance. I seriously doubt that Blanco will hit on the big league level, but he's done enough in the minors to deserve a chance to prove himself.
Mark Redman: Worst player in MLB. (Yes, even worse than Langerhans.)
Chip Caray: Worst broadcaster in MLB.
Note that on separate occasions last night, Chip referred to Jeff Francoeur and Dan Uggla as "the hottest hitter in all of baseball." Aside from the obvious logical contradiction...is he not familiar with Alex Rodriguez's work?
Another point: I'm with AAR in the "cautiously optimistic" camp re: Smurph. I desparately want him to be good -- there was just no statistical evidence showing that was the case last year. Let's hope he keeps it up.
And lando, your straw man argument has gotten pretty old.
And how about trying this: KJ to LF, Escobar or Lillibridge to 2B. I know this will never happen, the biggest reason being that the organization loves Prado and would give him the first shot in that situation, but I think it might be worth considering. Especially since Bobby won't just give the job to Diaz and see what he can do.
KJ to LF sounds like a good idea, but I'd hate to move him when he's having such a great year. Players seem to like certainty - they want the same lineup spot, the same position. If there is a crisis, sure, but at leave KJ alone if at all possible.
If you're going to bring Prado up, why not just stick him in LF? Don't move KJ again; he's spent too much time getting used to 2B.
I think it would be madness to move KJ at this point - he's doing everything well, including good defense at 2B (like the nice catch he made to end the game last night).
It's just so odd that the Braves can't find any solid offensive contributors at either 1B or LF, which are typically the top two spots for OPS among position players. It's a tribute to Chipper/McCann/KJ/Francoeur, et al. that our offense is doing so well without much of anything at those two spots.
The most encouraging thing to me is that the Braves are rebuilding from their own farm system, which bodes well for sustainable success even with our steadily declining payroll. Now, if we could only get Davies to locate his pitches down in the strike zone...
If KJ was struggling in the field, then sure lets keep his bat in the lineup by moving him to LF. But, he is playing great in the field and the plate so I vote to leave a good thing alone. With the current roster, I would say the Wilson in LF and Thorman at first is the best option. I'm in no way convinced that Diaz is anything more than a quality PH option and back up outfielder. One more thing, Mac is right. Blanco should get a chance real soon to try the ML level. What are our options with Langerhans? Can he be sent to AAA or is he out of options?
Stu, just eat your crow and learn to like it. :)
lando
KJ is doing spectacular IMO. Check out his OBP -- .435. That's what a leadoff hitter is supposed to do!
Jeffrey is leading the league in RBI's and is only second to AROD in all of baseball for RBI's.
Yes, 1B and LF need to be addressed, but not at the expense of KJ. He's done his work both at the plate and on defense. Until he struggles for a significant portion of time (and we aren't talking about a couple of errors and a 0-4 here), there's no reason to mess around with him.
And 19-25 games into the season, a trade isn't going to happen. I'd guess early June would be about the right time. Until then, you either wait for somebody to claim the job (like an extended spring training), or you call somebody up, Blanco, Jones, Yunel, Lillibridge, whoever.
The thing about winning, even if the Mets are doing so too, is that there's no rush to do something now at a premium. I'm sure that's why JS and Bobby are going to keep running Langy, Diaz, Thorman, and Wilson out there. I would guess, though that the first one to get hot may get to hold on to the position for a while. But if none of them get hot by June (or if losses start to mount because of the offense), I'm thinking we'll see some action.
-Jeff M.
Langerhans was out of options two years ago -- which is the only reason he made the roster to begin with. Would anyone claim him on waivers if the Braves sent him to Richmond? Iffy. A really bad team like the Notionals might take a flyer, I guess.
I'm not certain, but leaving aside the guys who aren't going anywhere, I think that the following position players have options left:
Orr
Pena
Thorman
Why not play Orr in left some, see what he can do playing everyday. He played outfiled in the minors, what could it hurt? I am sure he can hit at least .150 which is .100 points higher than Langy. He can't be any worse with the glove tha Diaz. He can run fast and has a good arm.
I don't know if you're still reading these posts but Mac if you are, is it possible to number the posts like you used to? When I'm trying to jump back and forth between windows or when I hit refresh, I can never remember what the last post was without numbers.
Also do you still need some money to cover expenses? I tried to use the icon you posted but am having trouble with it. When I figure out if I'm just stupid or can fix the problem I'd like to dend you something to help out.
Wow, we have hit rock bottom in LF. When Orr becomes an option for LF, something needs to be done.
I don't think anything will happen until mid-season for the LF spot. If we bring someone up, then who goes down. I just don't think the Braves will put Hans on waivers. I do hope that the braves make a quick move with the pitching. I can't bear watching Redman throw anymore. If you want to keep him on the roster, then use him for batting practice. My guess is that the Braves are waiting to see if Cormier can come back and then it's bye-bye Redman.
Joel, my expenses are covered for now; actually, more than covered. I can use the money but it's not necessary. If you have an Amazon account it should be easy to donate, if not impossible.
The new site should be up in a couple of days, though I don't know how long before the DNS migrates. It will have numbers and links to comments. This blogspot thing was nothing more than a temporary solution, the equivalent of an inflatable raft.
Thanks Mac and yes I got the Amazon thing figured out.
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home