Marlins 4, Braves 3
ESPN.com - MLB - Box Score - Braves at Marlins
You have got to be kidding me.
You know I'm a great admirer of Bobby's, but a younger manager, one not hung up on the outdated notions of complete games, probably wins this game. The Braves led 3-0 basically the entire game, and Tim Hudson looked bulletproof, striking out 12 in the first eight innings. But Bobby sent him out to start the ninth at over 100 pitches. Okay, that's reasonable, I guess, especially after getting only three innings out of your starter the day before, even with an off day tomorrow.
But Hudson allowed consecutive singles to lead off the ninth. You just can't get yourself into a situation where he's facing the tying run now. He was clearly spent. But after a discussion with Roger Dodger, he stayed in the game and allowed another single. Bobby finally went to Wickman, but he allowed a double to score two runs. Then they walked Joe "Florida's Langerhans" Borchard to intentionally load the bases, suggesting that they didn't actually see last night's game. Wickman got the next guy on strikes, but allowed a pathetic little flare single to tie the game, then threw a wild pitch to lose it. Hudson deserved much better, but at least he doesn't have to pitch in Colorado.
All three Braves runs came on solo homers, by KJ leading off the game, Chipper two batters later, and Diaz in the second. But Andruw had an awful day, striking out three times including with the bases loaded and two out. The Braves could have blown the game open then.
I probably would have had Gonzalez pitch the ninth.
posted by Mac @ 4/25/2007 08:34:00 PM
69 Comments
69 Comments:
I feel sick
cox sux nutz.
I wanted Soriano to pitch the ninth, especially after Hudson gave up the hits.
This one hurts. At least the Mets lost.
You said it Mac. 3-0 was a save situation, let Wickman have the Marlins with the bases clear. Now the team has to dwell on this loss with the off day tomorrow.
Bright side - the Braves seem to great at hitting home runs and just decent at everything else. Bring on Colorado.
Mac, I would use Soriano instead because Gonzo's control is not suitable for base-loaded situation. Of course, Bobby is all about roles, so we will never see that happening.
Finally, we agree on Bobby having a bad game. After two batters, he should have taken Huddy out. Actually, I personally never wanted Huddy to pitch the ninth.
Just a stupid lost, and we have to thank Bobby for it.
I thought he should have brought in Wickman after the second single. Neither ball was hit hard -- they just happened to find a hole, but both balls were flat and up in the zone. Looked like Hudson '06. Whatever. Hindsight is 20/20. Yadda yadda yadda.
What a horrific loss. That one is gonna sting for a while.
Just to clarify: I probably would have used Gonzalez to start the ninth; an easy save situation would have been a good thing for him and he's well rested, unlike Soriano and Wickman. But if you need a strikeout, Soriano should have been the man.
As bad as this is, if we're at home, we win it in the bottom of the ninth. I really believe if we could have gotten another chance at the plate we win it. I'm almost positive.
But there's games like this every year, it's baseball. They can't all go our way. The Mets lost, so no worry.
Didn't we pull something like this in Florida at the end of last year? 5 straight hits in the bottom of the ninth against Borowski? I guess it all evens out.
Hate that it happened like it did, but there's a whole season in front of us, and we're only a half game back.
GO BRAVES!
That makes Andruw's strikeout with the bases loaded that much worse.
Not the bottom of the ninth, but the top.
Since it got that far, I believe you go to Soriano for the K
Just got up and so I am glad that I missed the 9th, but I went back to the game thread just to see everybody's reaction....
I figure Bobby probably figured Hudson had pitched so well that no one in the pen would be better. 12 Ks in 8 innings for Hudson and Bobby was charmed out of his judgement. the amazing thing to me is that even with Glavine and Maddux, I always thought that Bobby was quick to pull starters. Now, with a great bullpen he should have.....
Wickman was bound to blow a save at some point, so maybe we can look forward to another amazing run on his part....
We need these wins as bad as the back end of the rotation looks right now.
What a horrible way to lose what should've been a great win for us. Now we remain in second place. :(
Mac, I absolutely agree with your clarification, but I am certain Bobby would never do that.
Its pretty tough to get a blown save when you're brought in with the bases loaded and no outs. At least the past ball (I dont think it was a wild pitch) doesnt tag him with the ER.
Why does cox bring in langerhans and not Orr. Relatively speaking, I think the gap between starter and backup defense at short is worse than in left. Pana or Orr or Escobar playing short and olivio is batting with 1 on and 2 outs.
This seems to happen with Tim Hudson a lot. The game looks out of reach for the other team, a couple of singles, a relief pitcher is brought in and it all melts down. Remember game four of the 2005 NLDS? 6-1, eighth inning, two singles and Farnsworth comes in and lays an egg. Last year a five run lead against the Reds in the bottom of the ninth at Turner Field, Hudson gives up two singles and Jorge Sosa blows the lead (the Braves did win in extra innings). And now tonight. No more complete game attempts for Tim Hudson unless the Braves have at least, say, an eight run lead in the last inning. Otherwise forget it.
In good news, from the official site:
"While playing left field this year, Diaz and Langerhans have combined to hit .127 with a .183 slugging percentage and .203 on-base percentage. Their .386 OPS (on-base plus slugging percentage) provides strong indication of how little production the Braves have received from the left-field position this year.
The next-lowest National League mark is owned by Washington's left fielders, who entered Wednesday with a .584 OPS.
If Diaz and Langerhans continues to struggle, the Braves may need to look to strengthen the position via a trade. At the same time, there are a couple of Braves coaches who believe that Brandon Jones is capable of playing at the Major League level immediately.
Jones, a strong-armed 23-year-old outfielder, is hitting .333 with a .919 OPS at Double-A Mississippi.
"He plays to win every night," said Braves bullpen coach Eddie Perez, who served as one of Jones' coaches at Mississippi last year."
FREE BRANDON JONES!
come on guys. why so negative?! i was with leaving huddy in for three batters. it isnt anybody's fault, all three of those singles could have been DP balls. wickman was brought in at the right time and didnt get it done. obviously i was sitting there thinking huddy should leave the game but you have to give him a chance at the complete game. the person who said a new school coach wouldnt have worried about the CG isnt taking into consideration the confidence huddy could have gaind by a CG shutout. its april, dont let that slip by you. a win is a win, but it is our first series loss in the first month. i really dont think the off day is going to do anything but make the club realize why they are going to mash on friday. GO SABRES!
Maybe I should declare a hockey-free zone.
The way Huddy has been pitching, I don't think he needs any confidence booster. The team finally has a bullpen, he should have used it.
Stephen, I actually never remember Bobby as a manager who is quick in pulling starters. On the contrary, I always remember him as someone who will leave his starters in for one or two or three batters too many.
I guess I just don't see this as something to be upset about. I wish we would have won, but those hits could have come off of Wickman, Soriano, or Gonzales. Maybe not Soriano, but you get my point. Hudson had shown no signs of tiring in the 8th and Cabrera had looked outright foolish against him all game. Sometimes, the ball just doesn't bounce your way.
Still only a half game back.
Thanks Anon @ 9:24
FREE BRANDON JONES
Instead of a half game up and four over the Phillies and five Marlins, it's half a game down with the Phillies and Marlins over three back. Sucks to lose this.
There is a poll on the official site (atlantabraves.com) asking if the Braves should:
1. Continue platooning Matt Diaz and Ryan Langerhans.
2. Use Diaz full-time.
3. Use Langerhans full-time.
4. Call up Brandon Jones.
How in the world 31% of alleged-Braves fans could pick option 1, or that 7% would pick the third option is beyond me.
FREE BRANDON JONES!
!
I don't get it. Why sacrifice the win for a complete game? Now the team has neither. This loss is on Bobby Cox alone. I could see the regret by his reaction after the game. We need to implement the strategies that win games until the last out. If that means sacrificing personal records; so be it.
as somebody was saying in the other thread, and as the ninth inning proved...range factor bit us hard. regardless of how tired hudson was, we would have won that game with a SS that covers more ground.
Edgar is going to have to get those cement blocks off of his feet and start running around out there.
"I don't get it. Why sacrifice the win for a complete game? Now the team has neither. This loss is on Bobby Cox alone."
Yeah, I'm sure if Wickman was brought in from the start and the exact same thing happened you wouldn't be questioning why Cox didn't leave Hudson in while he was so good.
Man. And I thought Mets fans were second-guessers. Hudson was cruising and pitching above his head. The baseball gods finally decided to end his (and Wickman's) run. Get over it. This isn't the 90s anymore. Not everying in the regular season is going to go the Braves way.
From CBS Sportsline:
"I feel bad for Hudson that he doesn't win the game," Olivo said. "But that's baseball."
...yeah, right...
damn it! i changed the channel at the end of the eighth inning only to now find out we blew that game. wtf! i hate baseball!!!!!
I wonder if Woodward at SS in the ninth would have made a defense. On the second single, I think someone else could have gotten to it. On that little 90-foot-line-driver-fly-ball-dying-quail-thing, I know someone faster would have gotten to it. Stink blossoms...
Hindsight is 20/20.
Hudson's going for the shutout; maybe the leash was a little long but given what Redman and Davies have done to the bullpen in the last 2 days (10 IPs) it would have been nice to go to Colorado with every RP fully rested.
What concerns me is the the two Black Holes that are forming around 1B and LF. Maybe Diaz is getting it together but I have some real fears that those two positions could turn into giant vortexes that suck the life completely out of this team.
How long do we wait until we make some kind of move?
At present I'm assuming Andruw is still on pace for 40 HRs and 110 RBI in his normally maddening white hot and ice cold surges and slumps. His OBP and OPS are good, but if he stays cold for too long visions of 2001 begin to dance in my head.
no, don't worry about resting the bullpen. We have an off day tomorrow, let them rest then!
Mac, I don't think Cox is enamored with the Complete Game. The evidence just isn't there. As far as leaving Huddy in, it is easy to call it on this side of the comeback. I was in favor of bringing in someone else for the ninth period. It is a save opportunity.
Perhaps after the last few games, he wanted to let Huddy give the pen a rest. I don't know what conversations he had with Tim. Regardless, it sux to lose this game. I hate it for Huddy, Wickman, and crew. We need every game we can get.
At least the Muts got pillaged in Colorado.
I still think you have a short leash on Hudson in the ninth. You don't let him give up three consecutive singles and then bring Wickman into a situation where he will almost certainly struggle it. As dominate as Wickman is, he's not necessarily a strike-out-the-side kinda guy. Bobby should have known that and had a shorter leash. I'm done with this loss. We'll get 'em Friday night.
Go Braves.
Incredible. When I moved to Atlanta I heard that Braves fans were soft but you guys take the cake. Hudson was tired in the 9 and it showed. He should have been pulled...period. Wickman was put in an very difficult position when the manager could/should have place him or Soriano in relief. Hate to say it but if these comments represent the majority of Braves fans, you can look forward to many more years of coming up short. Bobby Cox has a history of pitcher loyalty that consistently come back to bit him.
I dunno. I think you bring someone in after the first or second single, not the third.
I also agree that Renteria should probably be replaced at 2B late in games, especially when we've got a ground baller out there.
'Course, the later will never happen becuase Renti's got a great defensive rep and "soft hands", which just means he fields the balls he can get to well.
everybody agrees, atleast one batter too many. not a big deal. u gotta leave hudson out for a few batters. i love the braves more than anyone, but this loss isnt a big deal. ready for the west coast! no hockey ban, 1-0 SABRES!
"You have got to be kidding me," is right. I can't believe we lost that game. I couldn't be less happy rigth now.
About the Langerhans IBB last night, Jason Bay was walked tonight to get to LaRoche, who is not hitting much better than Langerhans. He roped a RBI single, and won the game for the Bucs in the 16th. It can go either way with the .0somethings.
Well we would have lost this game last year too!
Good point Smitty!
Hudson's loss was hard to take and we would have almost certainly had trouble holding the leas last year.
Anyway, a visiting Dodger fan reminded me of the Harvey Haddix game--which will probably always remain the gold standard for pitching brilliantly and losing. In 1959 Haddix pitched 12 perfect innings against the Braves and lost in the 13th. He was never the same pitcher again.
Hudson will probably be good all season long and, yes, these losses are tough to take--but that is baseball.
Last night's game will not be the last hard loss of the season...
Hindsight is 20/20, but Bobby is paid for 20/20 foresight -- Wickman should have started the ninth. Hudson was definitely out of gas in the ninth -- those dozen strikeouts take their toll, esp. with a small guy like Huddy.
Bitter pill, one I hope cures Cox.
Gonna have to live with Renteria.
Not sure BJones is a good alternative at this point -- perhaps after the break. Even if 'Hans breaks out of it, LF is going to have negative replacement value this season.
I understand why Bobby left Hudson in, even though it bit us horribly. To be fair, Hudson was absolutely blowing them away in the 7th and 8th; virtually every pitch was filthy, and he struck out 4 of his last 6 batters faced.
And yes, Bobby's known for being a pitchers' manager--that means that he'll give a pitcher a chance to finish the game if the pitcher wants, and he'll trust the pitcher when he asks him if he has anything left.
It's a really, really bitter loss, but hopefully Hudson will learn his lesson and agree to come out of the game the next time he's got nothing left.
Also, Stephen, to be fair, Haddix was never the same before either--he pitched one insanely brilliant game in a league-average career.
This all happened because Bobby pointlessly brought in Wickman to pitch the 9th with a 5 run lead on Tuesday. That led him to think he needed to try to give Bob a day off last night. Since the rest of the bullpen has been worked hard due to the crappiness of Redman and Davies, that made letting Hudson go for the complete game the only choice.
I hope bringing Wickman in the game Tuesday with a 5 run lead in the 9th just because he had warmed up in the bullpen was worth the unnecessary loss a day later.
That was miserable to watch, but I mean, come on. It's one game. It was a fluke, and everybody knows it. How many games have we stolen this year? Remember the opening series in Philadelphia? It happens. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. This might have been the first game we blew this year, but I guarantee it won't be the last. Hopefully, we'll only have a handful of these.
The good thing about this loss (if anything) will hopefully be that they are pissed as H#%% about it, and have to sit with that feeling thru the off day. I really hope we see them come out and take the lumber to the Rockies. This is where character shows.
krugerindustrialsmoothing
Two quick observations. Was checking the ATL Braves website and it seems they've just figured out that Langerhans is in a slump(Must not have been talking to anyone at Braves Journal--especially Mac). Also they have a pic of Skip's son on the website(he's calling Rome Braves' now--Hooray--another Caray calling games) Is it just me or does the guy look like Frankenstein?(not to be mean). Sorry for anonymous posting but I'm too lazy to sign up.
CHill
There's word now that the "bloody sock" wasn't real, according to Gary Thorne. Apparently Doug Mirabelli told Thorne it was really pain, just a PR stunt. I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case...
paint*
Were the sutures in Schilling's ankle fake as well?
Methinks Gary Thorne swallowed a worm with a big fat hook in it.
You know, that story passes the sniff test for me. It sounds like something Schilling would do.
couple things. first, that was a very tough game, but the evidence isn't exactly overwhelming that wickman would have nailed down the save had he been in there. he did give up a double, a blooper, and a wild pitch. also, it didn't seem like huddy was getting rocked (i was listening on the radio, but the 3 hits he gave up were all ground ball singles, which isn't really indicative of poor pitching). just a tough, tough game to lose, but something that happens every now and again. i still think cox is great; sometimes the ball doesn't bounce your way.
down on the farm, jarrod saltalamacchia is absolutely crushing the ball. thus far, he's hitting 377/472/754 in 61 ABs, with 5 2Bs, 6 HRs, and a 11/12 BB/K ratio. don't know about y'all, but i think that would play pretty durn well in our lineup. also, salty is a switch hitter, so he could be platooned either way, or used to spell mccann against LHP. that would give us another very good hitter and incredible flexibility.
oh, i didn't mention this in my post, but my thought was obviously to use him either at 1B or LF (probably 1B). Incidentally, he's a better hitter as a LHB than as a RHB, so he would be a great replacement for langerhans.
Kyle, Hudson in the 9th inning was VERY different from Hudson in the 7th and 8th. In the 7th and 8th, he left a total of 2 pitches up in the strike zone, and both were laced: Aaron Boone's double, and Dan Uggla's single. Everything else was down in the zone with movement, and filthy.
In the ninth inning, he didn't have a single pitch down in the strike zone. He got a couple strikes on hanging sliders, but absolutely everything was belt-high. I'm sure Bobby was caught by surprise to see a guy who'd been cruising begin to lose command so quickly; I agreed with Bobby that he deserved the chance to finish his own game, but he blew it utterly.
I'm definitely for going with Hudson to start the inning, but the real disagreements come with when Bobby went to the bullpen and who he went with. Wickman is the kind of guy who wants you to put the ball in play...not a good idea when you need a strikeout. But besides that, Hudson shouldn't have faced the tying run. Aside from that, few problems.
You know, that story passes the sniff test for me. It sounds like something Schilling would do.
Based on what, sansho1? Does Schilling have a history of painting fake blood on his clothes of which I'm unaware?
No, but Schilling has a history of being a prima dona and doing things (read: his own freaking blog) to get people to pay him more attention. I'm not saying he did doctor his sock, but it wouldn't surprise me, and I wouldn't put it past Schilling. Agree or disagree; I won't be surprised. Plus, that's a pretty outlandish story for Thorne to come with. "Doug Mirabelli told me it was paint." I mean, come on.
lol stu
No, I just find Schilling to be particularly...aware of his own legacy. I think he wants into the HOF very badly, but knows he got too late a start as an elite pitcher. So if he chooses to engage in some legend creation, what's the harm?
I admit to disliking him, and so I want very badly for this story to be true. It would provide incontrovertible proof to my suspicions that he's full of false bravado, and is in fact a prima donna publicity whore. But that's just me!
great minds etc etc Rob...
Rob and sansho,
While it does seem far-fetched for Thorne to make something like this up, does it not seem equally far-fetched that Schilling painted his sock and expected that the truth would never come out? Maybe I'm giving him too much credit; I just don't think someone as concerned with his own legacy as Schilling is--as you both make reference to--would do something that dumb.
Alex--not to labor the point, but Haddix was a three time All Star before 1959 who had 5-6 years where he was better than the league average. He looks more average, because after 1959 he struggled somewhat. To be sure, he was never destined for Cooperstown, but Hudson probably isn't either.
The blood spot got bigger (and darker) as the game went on. Pretty clearly it was blood.
Cox wasn't hesitant to bring in Wickman for the save. He just didn't think he was going to need to do so. Hudson was pitching lights out and struck out the last 2 batters he faced in the ninth. There was no reason at all to think that Hudson couldn't finish the game. I don't blame Cox one bit for throwing him back out there in the ninth. But I do agree he took Huddy out one batter too late. And if it is first and second, you bring in Wickman because he can get a groundout - but since the bases were loaded, you need to bring in Soriano or Gonzo to get the strikeout. Oh well, still early...
All I know is, if I had to pick one baseball player who might have some fake blood on hand, it'd be the one who plays with toy soldiers! ;)
Ummm...One Eye, Clearly Schilling snuck away in between innings to paint that spot a little bigger as the game went on. You know, to create more drama, Duh!!!
with money on the line, I will go with Bobby Cox's judgment over the critic's on this page. Remember not to start your criticism from the perspective of knowing the outcome. Cox didn't know when he made his decision. A couple of posts do a nice job of getting into the moment here, but probabilities still go with Cox's choice since Hudson is likely to induce a ground ball with his style of pitching. It is early in the season, Hudson is in great shape and there is little experience with him in ninth inning situations this year. Both Hudson and Smoltz would probably be left to work out of trouble in a similar situation at this point to establish a frame of reference for decisions later in the year. A good baseball player doesn't pea in his pants over a loss like this early on, he learns from it. You can spot the fans, however. They are the ones with the wet drawers.
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